Brace yourself
Dec. 1st, 2003 12:44 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
setraThis is going to get ranty, so rather than replying/commenting to Salem's post, I'll make my own. This is her fault for having linked me to Piro's rant, which I probably wouldn't have read otherwise.
So here goes... .
First off: Trigun.
I've had this argument with several people, namely Sei-chan, over both Trigun and Cowboy Bebop. The claims I was originally faced with was 'The dubs are better.' The justification for both was that the dubs made more sense than the Japanese. By which, of course, they meant that the dubs made more sense than the /subtitles/. That, I have now discovered, can be explained by Pioneer (imminantly Geneon). Pioneed decided for both shows that going with as close to a literal translation as possible for the subtitled would be best and would make fans happy. This it did.... those who were verterans of Anime could listen to the voices, understand the nuances of intonation and culture and we thought the shows were hillarious. Unfortunately, both Trigun and Bebop are great introduction shows... so we showed them to the newbies... who thought they were utterly confusing and in general stupid, with bits of coolness.
Then Cartoon Netwoek picked up the shows (or the nebies saw the dibs on thier own)... and suddenly both Bebop and Trigun were hits. Why? Because Pioneer's dub was not litteral. It had translated the tone and jokes as best as possible over into an american cultural reference... and now even those with no experience /got/ it.
Now, there are a few gripes I have about both these dubs, most are based mostly (or solely) in my elitist view of the fandam and my obsession with Japanese culture and language, but here goes.
Trigun: Firstly, Vash. I can't get past the pronounciation in the dub. Really, nothing bothered me more in the 15+ episodes I've seen of the dub, than the pronounciation of Vash. It is not 'ash' with a v in front. It's Vashu, with Japanese vowels. It should sorta rhyme with 'mosh' (like a pit)... but I can't think of any other comparable sounds. Second, honestly, the voices were not that great. Vash's dub actor tried, and at times he very nearly captured the character, but he simply could not switch from flirtatios to serious to foolish as smoothly and effectively as Onosaka Masaya. Few voice actors can, it's one of Onosaya-san's specialties, and he's played several other roles with similar personas. Also, from what I saw of the dub, the characters were acted somewhat one-sidedly. The actor seemed to get an idea in thier head of who this character was and stuck with it. For some shows that would work, but not for Trigun. Everyone in the show changes dramatically at one point or another (Vash every few minutes), and a huge part of the shows appeal was lost to me without that dynamic. (We won't mention here the loss of Seki Toshihiko as Lagato and Hayami Show as Wolfwood, because I can't comment to much on thier dubs and it would take miracles to impress me with both of them.)
As for the Bebop dub.... I think the main reason that people like the english better is that they don't know how to listen and read at the same time. I'm serious, it's a real problem. Hearing voice tone in one language and simultaneously reading another is an art. I think people who watch the Bebop sub and can't understand the humor or the appeal are reading the subs flat. They see "You can't call it beef and broccolli if there's no beef", but miss the tone of Spike's voice as he says it. The line in english is virtually the same (if I remember correctly), but people get it, because they aren't stuck on reading the words. Try watching american TV with the closed captioning on sometime, everything will seem flatter and dumber, it's just how most brains are wired. Then there's Ed.... who really can't be translated, and they took wild libertied with her just so that the dub would make some sort of sense... which I really didn't enjoy as much as I should have. They were clever, but Ed in Japanese is just one of those experiences you can't really match in a dub.
And these are both GOOD dubs. The rants on truly bad ones have been done, many, many times, so I won't repeat them now.
The other thing that Piro's rant brought to my mind is drama CDs. He's right. American fans avoid them like the plague. And it's not just because they can't understand them. You could offer translations, and most people still wouldn't think twice about them. Also, dubbing them would be nearly impossible because most american voice actors don't have the range of tonal emotion that it takes to make your meaning felt in a voice-only track. Many of them can't even manage too well with image and animation backing them up. Drama albums are one of those things that I see as a sign of being a different level of fan, not "better" per se, just set apart. An anime fan who likes Drama CDs (and similarly, but not to the same degree - image song-type albums) has a deeper level of Japanese cultural or linguistic understanding. I think most people are extremely frustrated by not understanding everything that they hear, it's why many people hate taking foreign languages. I see being able to move past that and be happy picking out only a word or two here and there is a huge step toward more deeply appreciating anime. Once you can do that, I think Drama CDs and songs become much more accessable and enjoyable.
Well, wow... that was a rant. I think it wasn't as long as Piro's... but it was a lot more pointless. So... now I'm off to Japanese soon. That only took 45 minutes. *sigh*
Bishonen: Wolfwood (he got in my head, and I can't excactly say I'm sad to have him there... ^_^)
So here goes... .
First off: Trigun.
I've had this argument with several people, namely Sei-chan, over both Trigun and Cowboy Bebop. The claims I was originally faced with was 'The dubs are better.' The justification for both was that the dubs made more sense than the Japanese. By which, of course, they meant that the dubs made more sense than the /subtitles/. That, I have now discovered, can be explained by Pioneer (imminantly Geneon). Pioneed decided for both shows that going with as close to a literal translation as possible for the subtitled would be best and would make fans happy. This it did.... those who were verterans of Anime could listen to the voices, understand the nuances of intonation and culture and we thought the shows were hillarious. Unfortunately, both Trigun and Bebop are great introduction shows... so we showed them to the newbies... who thought they were utterly confusing and in general stupid, with bits of coolness.
Then Cartoon Netwoek picked up the shows (or the nebies saw the dibs on thier own)... and suddenly both Bebop and Trigun were hits. Why? Because Pioneer's dub was not litteral. It had translated the tone and jokes as best as possible over into an american cultural reference... and now even those with no experience /got/ it.
Now, there are a few gripes I have about both these dubs, most are based mostly (or solely) in my elitist view of the fandam and my obsession with Japanese culture and language, but here goes.
Trigun: Firstly, Vash. I can't get past the pronounciation in the dub. Really, nothing bothered me more in the 15+ episodes I've seen of the dub, than the pronounciation of Vash. It is not 'ash' with a v in front. It's Vashu, with Japanese vowels. It should sorta rhyme with 'mosh' (like a pit)... but I can't think of any other comparable sounds. Second, honestly, the voices were not that great. Vash's dub actor tried, and at times he very nearly captured the character, but he simply could not switch from flirtatios to serious to foolish as smoothly and effectively as Onosaka Masaya. Few voice actors can, it's one of Onosaya-san's specialties, and he's played several other roles with similar personas. Also, from what I saw of the dub, the characters were acted somewhat one-sidedly. The actor seemed to get an idea in thier head of who this character was and stuck with it. For some shows that would work, but not for Trigun. Everyone in the show changes dramatically at one point or another (Vash every few minutes), and a huge part of the shows appeal was lost to me without that dynamic. (We won't mention here the loss of Seki Toshihiko as Lagato and Hayami Show as Wolfwood, because I can't comment to much on thier dubs and it would take miracles to impress me with both of them.)
As for the Bebop dub.... I think the main reason that people like the english better is that they don't know how to listen and read at the same time. I'm serious, it's a real problem. Hearing voice tone in one language and simultaneously reading another is an art. I think people who watch the Bebop sub and can't understand the humor or the appeal are reading the subs flat. They see "You can't call it beef and broccolli if there's no beef", but miss the tone of Spike's voice as he says it. The line in english is virtually the same (if I remember correctly), but people get it, because they aren't stuck on reading the words. Try watching american TV with the closed captioning on sometime, everything will seem flatter and dumber, it's just how most brains are wired. Then there's Ed.... who really can't be translated, and they took wild libertied with her just so that the dub would make some sort of sense... which I really didn't enjoy as much as I should have. They were clever, but Ed in Japanese is just one of those experiences you can't really match in a dub.
And these are both GOOD dubs. The rants on truly bad ones have been done, many, many times, so I won't repeat them now.
The other thing that Piro's rant brought to my mind is drama CDs. He's right. American fans avoid them like the plague. And it's not just because they can't understand them. You could offer translations, and most people still wouldn't think twice about them. Also, dubbing them would be nearly impossible because most american voice actors don't have the range of tonal emotion that it takes to make your meaning felt in a voice-only track. Many of them can't even manage too well with image and animation backing them up. Drama albums are one of those things that I see as a sign of being a different level of fan, not "better" per se, just set apart. An anime fan who likes Drama CDs (and similarly, but not to the same degree - image song-type albums) has a deeper level of Japanese cultural or linguistic understanding. I think most people are extremely frustrated by not understanding everything that they hear, it's why many people hate taking foreign languages. I see being able to move past that and be happy picking out only a word or two here and there is a huge step toward more deeply appreciating anime. Once you can do that, I think Drama CDs and songs become much more accessable and enjoyable.
Well, wow... that was a rant. I think it wasn't as long as Piro's... but it was a lot more pointless. So... now I'm off to Japanese soon. That only took 45 minutes. *sigh*
Bishonen: Wolfwood (he got in my head, and I can't excactly say I'm sad to have him there... ^_^)
